Andrew Forrester: It took ten years from the time that I finished my first manuscript. We probably tried to sell three books. None of them went anywhere for various reasons. And then I was like, I just kinda had this idea, and I couldn’t get it out of my head. Like, once it happened, I was like, of course, this is the one.

Kate Northrup: Hi. Today’s episode is so fun because it’s with one of my newest but also dearest friends, Andrew Forrester. He is a debut novelist, and his brand new book, How the Story Goes, just swept me away with its magic, its romance, its whimsy, its humor. And, Andrew has an amazing story as a writer. And I don’t wanna give too much away, but I will say this.

If you have a dream in your heart and you have tried and tried and tried to make it happen and it has not yet manifested in the way you want it to, this episode is for you. Andrew is self deprecating, hilarious, brilliant, and quite frankly, really inspiring. We talk about the creative process. We talk about writing. We talk about fortitude and resilience, and I think you will love Andrew as much as I do.

Kate Northrup: Enjoy. Welcome to Plenty, a weekly recalibration of power, money, and safety for high capacity humans. I’m Kate Northrup, best selling author and creator of Relaxed Money, and this is where neuroscience meets ancient wisdom meets real wealth strategy. This is the sacred conversation at the intersection of money, the body, and the life you’re truly here to live. If you’re ready to reimagine what’s possible for yourself and for the world, you’re in the right place.

Kate Northrup: Let’s go. Hi, Andrew. Hi. Welcome to Plenty.

Andrew Forrester: Thank you so much.

Kate Northrup: I’m so happy you’re here.

Andrew Forrester: Me too.

Kate Northrup: This is the best.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. I I’ve been waiting for this.

Kate Northrup: I’ve been looking forward to it. Maybe it’s gonna be your most fun interview of the whole book tour. Maybe.

Andrew Forrester: I the other ones have already come out, so I can say yes. I think it will be.

Kate Northrup: Okay. Great. Amazing. Amazing. Okay.

Kate Northrup: We’re gonna get right to

Andrew Forrester: it. K.

Kate Northrup: How many manuscripts have you written?

Andrew Forrester: Thank you for asking. So this was I think, I do the math, like, once a week in the shower just taking it through. I think this is my eighth. Okay. And I think I’ve written 10 total because I wrote another thing sort of while I was finishing this up, and then I’ve written a kind of companion piece to this to how the story goes.

Kate Northrup: Is that the one that’s Can we not

Andrew Forrester: We can talk about anything. No. No. My my editor has not bought it yet. Okay.

But But it’s the next thing that I is they will. She I mean, I hope so. Okay. Yeah. Great.

Andrew Forrester: We’re in the middle middle area. I think she will.

Kate Northrup: Well, I I I can’t imagine she wouldn’t. Okay. I’m gonna jump all around because that’s how my brain works. So you have written a total of 10 manuscripts, give or take. Yep.

Kate Northrup: You have four children.

Andrew Forrester: I do.

Kate Northrup: Between the ages of?

Andrew Forrester: Nine and four. Nine and four.

Kate Northrup: And you have a full time job? Mhmm. That is a kind of a big deal job? Sure. You know?

Andrew Forrester: Like, it’s It’s a full time job.

Kate Northrup: Right. Yeah. Okay. Fair. I just

Andrew Forrester: mean it does take up my

Kate Northrup: my life. Yeah. And, like, high stakes. It’s not like a phone it in. We’re gonna we don’t have to talk

Andrew Forrester: about that. And if it were, I wouldn’t say that. Correct. Who knows who’s listening? Anyway It takes up my time

Kate Northrup: to know. It’s meant you know, it’s Yes. Uses you in a in a way that right. So I hear from people all the time about the reasons that they have that they cannot pursue their artistry

Andrew Forrester: Mhmm.

Kate Northrup: That they cannot pursue their creativity, that they cannot pursue their dreams. Yeah. And yet here you are with a debut novel that is phenomenal, and we’re gonna get into it in a minute. I I, like, loved this

Andrew Forrester: Thank you.

Kate Northrup: Book, and I love this genre. Yeah. So, like, compared to all other books in this genre that I’ve read, I really, really loved it.

Andrew Forrester: Thanks.

Kate Northrup: I’m obviously your ideal customer. Right. Yet you found a way to not only write 10 manuscripts, but get one published and have the fortitude Yeah. To stick with it. Yeah.

Kate Northrup: What do you think it is about you that’s different than other people who let their dreams die?

Andrew Forrester: I mean, there’s genius. There’s True. No. There’s really not is the truth. It’s I just really wanted it.

Andrew Forrester: If I really drill down to where it came from, I really wanted it. I’ve always wanted it. And I kind of in my heart knew I will not stop till I get it, which I’m not like that about anything else. I just part of it is, like, I kept having ideas. I kept having a new idea that I wanted to play around with, and so I would just start writing it.

Andrew Forrester: The other part is that it’s fun. Like, I enjoy it. I just have fun doing it. There are writers that talk about writing being so difficult or painful or whatever. And I’m like, maybe, sort of, sometimes.

Andrew Forrester: But most of the time, it’s fun and it’s not you have air conditioning, and you can take a break and get a water, or what, you know, like, can do whatever you want. Right. And it’s playful, and it’s like, I never don’t want to be thinking about it. I always wanna be thinking about it, would be the more normal way of saying that. But it’s just like, I can’t not do it.

Andrew Forrester: And then I also I mean, it took a long time. It took ten years from the time that I finished my first manuscript. Took three years for me to get a literary agent. We probably tried to sell three books, and then finally You went your agent? Yes.

Andrew Forrester: And we landed and none none of them went anywhere for various reasons. The first book was just probably just fine. The second book came out during COVID. No one was working. It was complicated time.

Andrew Forrester: And then the third book, I don’t know. It didn’t land anywhere. And I was really bummed. That all of those books were for children and young adults. And then I was like, I just kinda had this idea, and I couldn’t get out of my head.

Andrew Forrester: And for me, writing it for adults for once was like really freeing. I got to use my voice and my jokes, my humor, my references. And it just kind of it’s so annoying to say, but it kinda just flowed out of me.

Kate Northrup: Like It’s not annoying to say.

Andrew Forrester: Well, I think it’s annoying when something if somebody says something is good, which thank you. And then you’re like, well, yeah, it was easy. That is a little bit annoying, maybe? I don’t know.

Kate Northrup: Well, I think it depends on your worldview.

Andrew Forrester: It’s true.

Kate Northrup: And that I talk a lot about how most of us have been conditioned to believe that suffering buys us something. Yes. And we really need to ask Yes. Is that true? Absolutely.

Kate Northrup: Like, would it be a higher quality book if it had been hard?

Andrew Forrester: Totally. It’s I I remember a podcast I used to listen to called the first draft with Sarah Eni. She doesn’t make it anymore, but I love her. And she would talk about how going to therapy made her a better writer. And she had this idea that you should be miserable, and you should be pained or tortured in some way as you’re writing.

Andrew Forrester: And then she’s like, wait. When I’m happier in my mental health, I’m actually a happier, better writer. Right. So with this, it flowed out of me. It was easy and fun and joyful to write, and it just kind of was like, oh.

Andrew Forrester: Like, once it happened, was like, of course, this is the one.

Kate Northrup: Like, do you think when you were writing this, did you know I kinda this was the one you knew?

Andrew Forrester: I I don’t know if I would have articulated it that way at the time, but I kind of was like, if one’s gonna happen, it’s gonna be this one.

Kate Northrup: Gonna be this one.

Andrew Forrester: And I had a friend who read it earlier, my friend Alex, and he was like, oh, yeah. This is the one. I was in a writing group at the time, and they just were like, part of I kinda feels like a part of it. I’m not like a you know me. I’m not like a manifest kind of person.

Andrew Forrester: But when when my friends would read it and they would sort of encourage me in it, I kind was like, okay. Then this will be the one. And I was just kinda determined. And then, of course, it was like the easiest sell. It didn’t take a lot of, like, oomph.

It just kind of happened, which

Kate Northrup: When you sent it into your agent?

Andrew Forrester: I sent it my agent, and we had a little bit going my agent typically represents children and young adult books. And she was like, okay. We’ll get another agent at my agency to help out. And we had some trouble finding an agent who had like the time and the bandwidth at that moment. And while we were scrambling around, an editor reached out to her and said, hey, I’m switching from children’s fiction to adult fiction.

Andrew Forrester: Do you have any debut contemporary stories that are maybe have like a love love story involved? And my agent was like, yeah. I have exactly that. And within a month Perhaps

Kate Northrup: set in a small town

Andrew Forrester: in New England. Exactly. It was like my I remember the email. My agent said, are the stars aligning? And again, typically, I’d be like, no.

Andrew Forrester: And this time, I was like, I guess they are. Yeah. Which just all of it felt like it kinda felt like it was supposed to happen. It was crazy.

Kate Northrup: It did. Yeah. Was there any moment in that decade of of writing these 10 manuscripts and various things and taking a long time to get an agent and all that Yeah. Where you thought to yourself, you know what? If this was going to be, it would have happened already.

Kate Northrup: Was there any moment where you thought about throwing in the towel?

Andrew Forrester: So I was in grad school when I first started, and then I had six years of grad school. And then I was, like, working as a teacher for the first seven years out of grad school, and now I have this other job that will not be named just for anonymity. But I think there were little moments, like little bursts of, like, despair. Like, if a book we sold a book that my agent and I were really confident about didn’t do anything. Like, got just so little interest, or it would take weeks and months to hear back even a no.

Andrew Forrester: Like, a no was great because I was like, somebody read it. Somebody thought about it. Somebody considered it. But when you heard nothing for weeks and weeks. So there would be little glimmers for sure where I was like, I guess this won’t be it.

Andrew Forrester: But again, genuinely, there’s nothing else in my life where I had been like, well, I’m not gonna give up in this. Or in the past, I would have just thought, okay. Well, then this is like a rudder being turned, and I need to go in a different direction. When I got out of grad school, I thought I would be a college professor, and I ended up teaching high school English. And it was like the perfect shift.

Andrew Forrester: I was willing to move in that way. But with this, I was like, okay. I’ll just keep going, I guess. I’ll just keep writing, keep writing, keep writing. And I don’t I actually don’t think that’s really my personality in any other facet.

Andrew Forrester: But it for this, I I don’t know.

Kate Northrup: It’s amazing. Not. It’s really amazing. When you told me the story of you becoming an author, my jaw just fell on the floor. I don’t yeah.

Kate Northrup: I don’t think I would have stuck with it. And I’m Yeah. So glad you did, obviously, because while you’re writing, I’m sure, was extraordinary the entire time. Now just more people are reading it.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. Well, and I I also you know, it did get a lot better. This is a far better book than I could have written ten years ago. And I know that I’ll write a better one ten years from now, but it felt like the things I learned and then the other thing is that a lot of this book, it’s about two writers. It’s partially about the publishing industry.

Kate Northrup: Book about writing.

Andrew Forrester: And I

Kate Northrup: had Which is to so fun.

Andrew Forrester: Well, and I had to have experienced Yeah. A long time of writing. I had to know how agents and editors work. I still got some things wrong when I sold it to my the editor that ended up publishing it. There are few things she was like, okay.

Andrew Forrester: So this actually wildly inaccurate or whatever, like little things here and there. Yeah. But I had to know enough, and I gained a lot of that from those ten years before I started to put this down on paper.

Kate Northrup: So you are you part of a writer’s group now?

Andrew Forrester: Yes. I am. A different it’s a different one than I was in when I was writing. But

Kate Northrup: because there’s a thread in here Yeah. About a writer’s group Yeah. And the relationships that develop and then sort of undevelop. Yeah. Or you know?

Kate Northrup: And I’m curious how important has being part been

Andrew Forrester: Mhmm.

Kate Northrup: I think you know what I’m asking you.

Andrew Forrester: Mhmm.

Kate Northrup: How important has community been Yeah. In terms of shaping your writing and this particular book?

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. So it’s gone I think it’s gone through so many iterations. The first time I wrote the first novel, I guess you’d call it, that I wrote, will never see the light of day.

Kate Northrup: But Was that a young adult?

Andrew Forrester: It was a young adult. And it was kinda like speculative. Like, there was like a everyone had like powers in it. It’s not really my my thing. I just had an idea that I ran with.

Kate Northrup: Love powers.

Andrew Forrester: I mean

Kate Northrup: But maybe It was fine. Maybe in the future. Maybe the powers will come back.

Andrew Forrester: We’ll see. I liked it. But I I had never really let anyone read anything. And I happened to be talking to my friend Alex who had just finished a manuscript, and neither of us knew. And we were like, okay.

Andrew Forrester: So we traded. So that was my first sort of thing. And I think I’ve told Alex this, but I was like, I didn’t really understand how it should work. I was really nice to Alex and he was really honest in return. And at the time, it like a little brutal.

Andrew Forrester: And looking back, I’m like, no, that’s just what you do and what you need. And I probably could have been a little bit more, like, I I was honest, but I was also just I probably pulled some punches that I I wouldn’t now. And so that was a really important moment for me to realize that like, oh, real community, real friendship and support is being honest about these things even when it is hard. Because he was doing it because he wanted me to be able to sell it. He wanted me to have the best story I could.

Andrew Forrester: So that was the first sort of thing. And that was like, so scary to show someone this silly story I made up in my head. I I’ve heard someone talk about it. I can’t remember who it is, but it feels like you have dolls and they’re making them kiss. And then you’re saying what, having forcing somebody to watch you do that.

Andrew Forrester: And that’s so vulnerable. Yeah. But after I did that, I was then able to I joined a a writing group when we lived in Dallas for a little bit. I was in a small writing group with just two friends in Austin, and now I’m in a much larger writing group with friends. And I think what’s funny is that the writing group in the book is like, all they do is sit next to each other and write.

Andrew Forrester: They don’t even share their work together, but it’s just about like having someone you can do that with. And I’ve done that before. And it’s like, it’s accountability. It’s encouragement. It makes you feel like you’re allowed to take yourself seriously when someone else is doing it.

Andrew Forrester: So yeah. So there’s that. And then there’s other components of just like, my friends have been so nice to me about this book. I made a joke the other day about how my Instagram used to be like my kids, and now it’s me talking about this book nonstop. Like so where I’m sick of it.

Andrew Forrester: I’m sick of seeing this cover, which is beautiful. I love the cover. The cover is really beautiful. Artist Holly Evandin, she’s amazing. But when you it’s all you ever talk about.

Kate Northrup: A 100%.

Andrew Forrester: And I was like, I really took a huge turn in a different direction of like my family, my friends to this book, and everyone has been so nice. No one’s been mean. No one’s complained. Maybe they’ve complained to their friends or their spouses.

Kate Northrup: Think so because you deliver all the book stuff surrounded in so much humor and wit that it’s just you could talk be talking about whatever.

Andrew Forrester: Thank you. Well, and that’s why I’m launching a new business. Selling no. I don’t even know what I’d sell.

Kate Northrup: I mean, you could certainly just keep selling your words

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. That’s that’s the plan. That’s the plan. Yeah. But yeah.

Andrew Forrester: Anyway, so I’ve just felt like people have given me permission and encouragement to keep doing this. Yeah. And my personality is if someone says it’s okay, then I feel a lot better about it. It’s a lot of my, like, growth has been about giving myself permission

Kate Northrup: Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t still feel really good when it comes from other people.

Kate Northrup: A 100%. A 100%. Okay. So now backing up, speaking of which, you and I met sort of at, like, adult therapy camp.

Andrew Forrester: We met. How would you describe it? I call it a wellness retreat. But that but that makes people think of, like, spas, and I wish there

Kate Northrup: was a spa.

Andrew Forrester: We did do a sound bath, which I hated.

Kate Northrup: I didn’t go.

Andrew Forrester: Oh, and you made the right choice.

Kate Northrup: A tub

Andrew Forrester: that night. I tried I tried to engage, and I

Kate Northrup: Was felt that your first sound bath experience?

Andrew Forrester: It is not true. Felt like somebody was going to, sorry, but I felt like someone was gonna fart, and I was gonna lose it. And I felt really stressed that I was being my body was, like, gonna distract someone from finding inner peace or something. And I tried to sleep, and I couldn’t. So Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: Anyway, we did meet at what I’ve been calling a wellness retreat. K. But I guess another word for it would be like intensive group therapy.

Kate Northrup: It was sort of intent. Yes. Yeah. I guess it was intensive group therapy.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. Which I 100% didn’t realize I was signing up for until I was over there.

Kate Northrup: You were you had no idea?

Andrew Forrester: I knew it was gonna, like, involve a therapist. I didn’t know it was going to be intensive per group therapy. I didn’t know I was gonna be sobbing in front of people I had met an hour before. Seconds before. Mhmm.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. Yeah. And I did sob So did I.

Kate Northrup: Great way. So did I.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah.

Kate Northrup: It was so good. Yeah. One of the things that is so great about you is your sense of humor and how it’s combined with being smart. Well, obviously, people with the best senses of humor are known to be the most intelligent.

Andrew Forrester: I’m sweating. Mean, that’s going. Standard. And

Kate Northrup: I’m curious, you may not remember, but do your parents talk about you being funny as a kid? Have you always been this way? Or did it develop did your sense of humor develop more in through, like, high school and adulthood?

Andrew Forrester: No. I think I was always I can

Kate Northrup: You’re always

Andrew Forrester: It’s weird to say that. I’m gonna but I’m gonna say it. I was always funny.

Kate Northrup: You’ve always been

Andrew Forrester: funny. I was always interested in being funny is maybe a way to say it.

Kate Northrup: Oh, that’s Do you remember?

Andrew Forrester: Yes. I can remember yeah. Have two specific memories. I remember being at, like, a game. My sisters were old five and eight years older than me.

Andrew Forrester: I remember being at like a soccer game, and somebody had a scarf. And some reason I had a scarf, and I put it on my head, and I said, I’m just a poor widow to to like a random parent. And I remember them telling, I think, my dad that that was so funny. Hilarious. Yes.

Andrew Forrester: Yes. Yes. Yes. And then I remember my sister Emily, who I love, is five years older than me, and she had a phase of being like a cool girl. Uh-huh.

Andrew Forrester: And she was like kinda mean. Like fifth grade. Like not. Totally.

Kate Northrup: In a way, only a fifth grade girl can be.

Andrew Forrester: They can be scary, and she was very cool. And so I’m sure it’s hard to not be mean when you’re very cool. But she is the genuinely one of the most wonderful, lovely people in the world now. But I can remember, you know, just being like she was cooler than me, her friends were cooler than me, and being a little anxious around not anxious, but wanting to be cool. Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: And I can remember I think I was probably in fifth grade, and she’s would have been no. That’s true. I’m getting the numbers off. It doesn’t matter. I can remember her saying to me when she was probably in high school, you’re really funny.

Andrew Forrester: Oh. And that was like, okay. That’s my personality now is to try to be funny. Uh-huh. So yeah.

Andrew Forrester: Amazing. And I think my parents would probably say, yeah. He’s always tried to be funny. That’s so good.

Kate Northrup: Are any of your kids funny?

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. They’re all funny in weird way. They’re diff not weird, but, like, weirdly different ways. Uh-huh. My oldest, James, is I think he’s, like, kind of smart and kind of, like his humor is kind of smart.

Andrew Forrester: My daughter, Winnie, is, like she’s willing to be really silly or, like, sarcastic in a way that I think it shows, like, real maturity. Yeah. Peter is just, like, goofy. I don’t know. And William, our youngest, is, like, monstrous.

Andrew Forrester: Like, he’s gonna do like, he’s I don’t know where he came from. He’s like, we I

Kate Northrup: But that’s the last child.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. I say he’s either gonna be really popular in school or be sent to an alternative school. So we’ll see. We’ll see. And both will be we’ll figure it out.

Both

Kate Northrup: will be.

Andrew Forrester: But, yeah, I I do think they’re all sort of funny. I think they see the value in humor. And when we read, like, books together that are funny and they laugh, I’m like, okay. Guys are gonna be okay.

Kate Northrup: It’s so good. Yeah. So there’s a wonderful little girl in your book. And I’m curious when you were writing her, were there threads of thinking about your own kids

Andrew Forrester: Yeah.

Kate Northrup: In those stories at all. I mean, she’s a grieving kid.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Northrup: You know, it’s a complicated Yeah. Story about her.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. So Whit is the main character, and his daughter Annie is, I think, in third grade. There’s things you forget after you you know? Someone asked how old she was, and I was like, I guess, eight.

Kate Northrup: I don’t know. Right.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. And so I don’t if I think if that’s happening, it’s sort of unconscious. Yeah. Like, I wasn’t saying, well, what would my daughter do in this case? I was really determined that she would feel like a full person, that she wouldn’t feel like a prop or, like, annoying or or, like, I don’t know.

Andrew Forrester: Just, like, I wanted her to be part of the story rather than an object within the story or a plot device. And so I wanted her to be a little complicated. I wanted Whit as a parent to be like, I wish I knew what you were thinking, which is something I think about with my own kids. It’s like, how do I get into your brain and

Kate Northrup: know more And about

Andrew Forrester: and they’re still young where they’ll tell me, but I know that one day, because I was a kid, I know that one day they will stop doing that. And so, yeah, there was those little things, and then I thought a lot about what how kids handle sadness, which is different than adults. You know? It’s like they’re don’t sit around in their sadness. Most kids, I guess.

Andrew Forrester: They play, and they have fun, and they giggle, and then it hits them.

Kate Northrup: Yes. And shift the most convenient time. Yes. Also, which is fascinating.

Andrew Forrester: Yes. Like or and and in a really neutral way a lot of the Or or they’re at bedtime, and you’re desperate for them to fall asleep, and that’s when you start to hear all the mean stuff that’s happening at school or whatever.

Kate Northrup: That’s hard time, but also a wonderful time.

Andrew Forrester: Yes. It’s so sweet, and I’m so grateful for it. I’ve never yelled during that time. No. And then the what I really thought about, though, was how wit the dad parented Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: Verses I didn’t think so much about like, writing the daughter felt easy to me. I was a teacher forever, and I worked at summer camp Yep. And all that. But how to write a grieving dad, I think, was influenced by just me. Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: You know, like, what would be hard for me? What would be special? How you know when you see your kids eat and you feel really good about them eating? Yes. Why is that so real?

Andrew Forrester: It’s gotta be evolutionary. It’s like so satisfying, you know? And so I there are little moments.

Kate Northrup: No one has ever articulated that. Like, I’ve never fully recognized that that’s a thing

Andrew Forrester: until right now. Oh my gosh. Like, it feels like you are successful. It feels like they’re gonna be okay.

Kate Northrup: And so Everything’s okay.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. So there are little moments where he sees her just I think I said just being okay. Yeah. And I know that that’s how I would feel too. Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: I I did an event recently where someone told me very kindly, they’re like, you write grief really well. What have you experienced? Yeah. And I honestly, like, I’ve I’ve been pretty lucky. I haven’t lost many people in my life, and certainly no one that I was intimately as intimately close to as, like, a a spouse.

Andrew Forrester: And I had to just be like, I just kinda think about it a lot. Not not in life. I think about it when I’m writing the book. Think Yeah. Just really try to sit with it.

Andrew Forrester: Because I think that’s what writing is. It gives you the chance to experience those things. Maybe Well,

Kate Northrup: you’re obviously a very observant person, which I think is part of why you’re a good writer and also pie part of why you’re funny. It requires being aware of the world around you. And so I know this is the worst. We need us. We need something like pads

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. On the It’s alright.

Kate Northrup: On the glasses. Okay. To commercial. Yeah. Sweet aren’t our sponsors yet.

Kate Northrup: Okay. So I’m curious. As you were writing Wit

Andrew Forrester: Mhmm.

Kate Northrup: Is there anything in him that reminds you of yourself?

Andrew Forrester: Oh, yeah. Everyone I’ve written from their perspective of is my is a version of me. I I admire people who can write, like, really cruel, really, you know, whatever, brutal characters. And I’m sure there’s a sliver of them in those characters as well, but I I don’t wanna spend my time in someone’s in the brain of someone I don’t also wanna hang out with. Mhmm.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. And so wit one of the things that happens when I write is I sort of let myself be more critical than I try to let myself be in real life. And so Wit is, like, really grumpy. He’s, like, pretty annoyed by the world, understandably. He is he’s grieving

Kate Northrup: He’s having

Andrew Forrester: a hard this horrible thing hanging over him of trying to finish his wife’s book for her with all the pressure that surrounds that. And so I had a I’ve been reading reviews. I’ve chilled out, actually, but I was reading early reviews. Really? Well, like, from NetGalley, like, from, like, from just people who like to read.

Kate Northrup: Yeah. I’ve chilled out

Andrew Forrester: because it’s gotten overwhelming. But one of the, like, kind of neutral ones was annoyed by how much it said something like, the narrator would drop in, like, how annoyed the main character was with things. I And was like, yeah, people get annoyed with things. I don’t know what you want me to like like he says, they have a gate, and he hates that they have a gate at their house, and he’s annoyed by the school that is like Yeah. Sorry, that’s just so that’s sort of the part of me I let sort of run amok.

Andrew Forrester: And then there is a part where he has trouble, like, accessing his emotions, and that is a very real part of my story of, like, he says that his emotions feel like they are sort of trapped under a terrarium, and he can see them, but he would have to, like, break it to get in. And, you know, at our intensive group therapy, that is something I I spend a lot of time trying to process.

Kate Northrup: Yeah. I mean, I oddly, I feel like I know you well even though I have barely known you any amount of time.

Andrew Forrester: Right. Because I Which is It’s like we were naked in

Kate Northrup: a room together.

Andrew Forrester: Sorry to say.

Kate Northrup: It’s a very interesting relationship Yeah. Actually. I’ve never experienced anything like it before than with the people in our little crew. But, yeah, when I was reading it, it’s a really interesting thing. I actually am not sure that I’ve ever written read I’ve definitely never written

Andrew Forrester: a novel.

Kate Northrup: And I don’t think I’ve ever read a novel written by a friend.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah.

Kate Northrup: Yeah. I think you’re my only novelist friend.

Andrew Forrester: Okay.

Kate Northrup: Number one. And number two, it felt very

Andrew Forrester: It’s me.

Kate Northrup: It yeah. Yeah. It felt like being with you. Yeah. Even though it is completely a made up story.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah.

Kate Northrup: But it’s very The voice is mine. Real. It’s so beautiful.

Andrew Forrester: Well, thank you.

Kate Northrup: What a gift.

Andrew Forrester: Alright. Well, I want it to sound like me. You know, I think I’m not necessarily a great plotter. I can’t like, I don’t know that I can write a story like The Hunger Games or something where you just have to know what happens next. Uh-huh.

Andrew Forrester: I think my strength is in my voice. Uh-huh.

Kate Northrup: And so I’ve Although I definitely wanted

Andrew Forrester: to I just mean

Kate Northrup: But no. It wasn’t like

Andrew Forrester: If you want explosions, you’ve come to the wrong place. Thank you.

Kate Northrup: Only a heart explosion.

Andrew Forrester: Right. Right. Oh, explosions of grief and love. But I know that if I’m going to if I’m gonna, like, have a fan, it’s gonna be a fan of my voice that I that thing that I, like, leaned into. It’s interesting too because I wrote this probably I started this four years ago probably, and it took two ish years to get to a final draft, and then we sold it almost two years ago.

Andrew Forrester: And so it’s this thing that I’ve carried around for almost half a decade, but it’s still me, I guess. You know, like I’ve grown and changed hopefully in that time, but I still am really proud of this, and it still feels like authentically me.

Kate Northrup: A 100%. Yeah. So I’m having so much fun.

Andrew Forrester: That was so fun.

Kate Northrup: I have three I have three specific questions, and I don’t know which ones to which one to ask first. Now that you’ve gone to group therapy camp with

Andrew Forrester: me Should we say what it’s called? Should we talk

Kate Northrup: about fine with that. Yeah. Yeah. We would

Andrew Forrester: talk on-site.

Kate Northrup: It was the living centered

Andrew Forrester: Living centered.

Kate Northrup: Program, but maybe we did a slightly abbreviated version.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. A one day shorter living center program at on-site.

Kate Northrup: I can’t recommend it. Was the perfect amount. Yes. I could have done another day, but everyone should go. Yes.

Kate Northrup: A 100% if you ever get a chance. It I have for me, and I’m curious for you, it I have like a before Yeah. On-site and an after. And differently than you, I have done 3,000,000 gajillion Right. Other things Right.

Kate Northrup: Not similar, but adjacent. Right. Like, I’ve done so much weird shit in that in that category. And it was

Andrew Forrester: my first weird shit.

Kate Northrup: Deeply transformative. Like, deeply transformative. On-site was. Yes. And I am curious, as you are working on your writing now Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: Post our experience in October, has the experience of writing changed?

Andrew Forrester: That’s a great question. I would say it was transformative for me too. I if I were to critique myself, I think I could do more of sitting with the work that I did there and sort of calling myself back to it, which is actually one of the great things I said. It’s like you can always start again.

Kate Northrup: Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: You can always begin again. Yeah. And so I do try to do that. I just go I’ve been going longer stretches than I would like without coming back to this sort of centered place that I really found myself in afterwards. While I was there let me think this through.

Andrew Forrester: I think I was about halfway through a manuscript while we were there together. Maybe a little more, and then I finished that, and then I started a new one. And so I do think it’s changed me in two ways. One is that I’m hoping I realized that I only really wanna write things that make me feel hopeful and joyful.

Kate Northrup: I think we just need so much more of that in the world.

Andrew Forrester: Well, and I do think I’m I I like, rush to say, I think there’s a place for sad, hard, heavy books. And I will read those, and I’ll spend time with those. I’ll be impressed by them. It’s just not what I wanna do. I wanna spend time in a place that makes me feel hopeful.

Andrew Forrester: And so I think everything that I will write, even if I change genres, even if I change directions, even if I I I would love to write a murder mystery one day. I think that’s so fun. But I really admire people who can do those while also like talking about the beauty of the world and the things that we owe to each other and that sort of thing. So that’s one way. The other way is that the thing I’m working on now, I’ve told no one this.

Andrew Forrester: I have a completed manuscript that I would like to be a companion to this, and then I have a third thing that’s also said in the same town, Welk Harbour, about about about a wellness retreat. Which will not be the same as our on-site experience. I I don’t want it. I would never have written it before. And I think one of the things I wanna do with it Interesting.

Andrew Forrester: Well, one of the things I wanna do with it is have a character who is like me Yeah. And hesitant and sort of judgmental of things like that. And then sees like, oh, wait a second. What if these things actually work and are helpful? I don’t know if I’ll finish it, but it’s been really fun to turn around.

I’ve written a little bit and I think it could be really fun. Love

Kate Northrup: love that so much.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. So it’s changed my subject matter and I think it’s also just sort of changed the way that I I don’t know. What I’m what what what my larger goal is. Like the end of of what I’m doing.

Kate Northrup: When do you write?

Andrew Forrester: Mhmm. Mhmm.

Kate Northrup: Like when in the day? Yeah. Where do

Andrew Forrester: you Typically really late at night.

Kate Northrup: Do you find the time, Andrew?

Andrew Forrester: Okay. Here’s my schedule. I drop my kids off at school. I go to my work work. My my quote unquote real job.

Andrew Forrester: I’m lucky in that if I get there early, I leave. I can leave early. So I have time to come home, and we have dinner together, and we get our kids down. It takes far longer than any human should have to endure. We’ve really got ourselves into a bad situation with bedtime.

Andrew Forrester: It’s taking forever. We have four children. It’s our own fault. But once they are down down, if I’m in the middle of a project, I try I write then. I try to sit down and write a thousand words.

Kate Northrup: Okay. A thousand words is your That’s my goal.

Andrew Forrester: It’s less about like where I am or or what part of the day it is. Mhmm. More I just within the day, I wanna try to write a thousand words. Okay. Sometimes I’ll write a little bit on my lunch break, and actually that will get me going.

Andrew Forrester: Yep. I have like a generous lunch break. It’s great. But it will get me started, and that will make it so that I don’t have to stay up. Like, it’s less scary to sit down and write when I get to it later in the day.

Andrew Forrester: Does that make sense?

Kate Northrup: Yes. Practical question.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah.

Kate Northrup: Do you wear blue light blocking glasses? No. I probably should. I’m a little worried about your eyes.

Andrew Forrester: Well, wear real glasses.

Kate Northrup: I know you do. So I don’t know what we need to do, but we’ll talk

Andrew Forrester: about it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Kate Northrup: I just am wanting to protect your I appreciate it. You know, your stress hormone

Andrew Forrester: I also have I have

Kate Northrup: your cortisol.

Andrew Forrester: Migraines, and I think it would probably help.

Kate Northrup: Correct. Okay. So we’re that’s we’re gonna sidebar that for the

Andrew Forrester: car ride. Sponsorships. Well,

Kate Northrup: actually, I will just take this moment to say that my favorite blue blue light blockers are you can get at katenorthrup.com/glasses.

Andrew Forrester: Oh, okay.

Kate Northrup: That is a real thing. I have noticed that for myself, if I wear them after sundown Uh-huh. Versus when I don’t, it’s like the next morning I feel hungover

Andrew Forrester: Yeah.

Kate Northrup: If I don’t wear them.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Northrup: Yeah. Versus if I do. So anyway

Andrew Forrester: okay. Okay. Okay.

Kate Northrup: So that’s amazing that you, like, have the energy because after about 05:00 at night, I will tell you what, I’m pretty much toast for I’m good for nothing other than maybe watching an episode of shrinking.

Andrew Forrester: Okay. Two things. One is the older I get, the more true that is. Like, I do feel like I have less gas in the tank, which kills me a little bit. But the other thing is I especially when I was a teacher, I felt like I was with people all day long.

Andrew Forrester: And I was like, as much as I love my friends, love the people I work with, and and cherish the time with my family, I was yearning for that, like

Kate Northrup: Like that alone time.

Andrew Forrester: Hour, hour and a half, sometimes two hours of me being alone. When it’s the best situation is I write my thousand words, and I can get a show in afterwards.

Kate Northrup: I mean, that With

Andrew Forrester: my with my bowl of ice cream.

Kate Northrup: Yes. Yes.

Andrew Forrester: It’s so good.

Kate Northrup: So I wanna talk to you about your relationship with creativity and your relationship with God.

Andrew Forrester: Mhmm.

Kate Northrup: So I’m gonna preface this by talking about I am no you know about this theory that Elizabeth Gilbert and others talk about about the ideas that have their own consciousness, and

Andrew Forrester: they just sort

Kate Northrup: of, like, choose a person. And if that person doesn’t use it, they go to somebody else, and then it’s not really us. It just comes through us. Agree or disagree?

Andrew Forrester: I don’t know, Katie. I don’t know. I think ten years ago, would have said that’s a bunch of very judgmental and dismissive of that. I don’t know if I would put it in those terms, but I would say that well, I don’t know. I think that there are ideas that I have or parts of this book that feel like uniquely me, but I also don’t know where they came from, if that makes sense.

Andrew Forrester: Like this story, I kind of had a question, which is like, there was a time in like young adult lit where every every major book was having a midnight party, and they’re having conventions, and people were just obsessed, you know. And I was thinking about how much pressure that would feel to land that plane well, and then what would happen if a beloved author died. Like, do you do? And and how does it feel?

Kate Northrup: Gave me full body choice. Oh my gosh. Read it. But, you

Andrew Forrester: know, that’s happened. Like, the wheel of time is a fantasy series I’ve never read, but they he died before finishing.

Kate Northrup: The oh, that’s my friend is the maker of the

Andrew Forrester: The movie? Yes. The

Kate Northrup: show? The show. The show. Incredible. Rafe.

Andrew Forrester: Five kids. Hello.

Kate Northrup: The show is I’ve watched a couple of episodes, and people are obsessed.

Kate Northrup: The show is I’ve watched a couple of episodes, and people are obsessed.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. I really like. And it’s such it’s got such a great cast, and it’s visually very beautiful. But those books were not finished by the original author. They’re finished by Brandon Sanderson, who’s exceptional, but not the author.

Kate Northrup: So came in and had to finish out a series and imagine. Yes.

Andrew Forrester: And I I don’t know if he had notes to work from. I don’t know how that worked. Or like JRR Tolkien. You know, he had unfinished manuscripts that his son then went off and and finished for him. And to me, that feels like I don’t know how to say it, I like, a cheaper experience than than the true original.

Andrew Forrester: And so but you gotta do it. You know? And so I I started with this question, but it did feel like it just sort of all cohered together. Like, it just came to me. And and I I remember having moments of, like, well, it can’t just be about this guy.

Andrew Forrester: There’s probably gotta be someone else that’s helping him do this, and that’s where I came up with the idea of Merit. And I know I, like, spent some time crafting her character, but I kinda knew her before I put her down on the page. And

Kate Northrup: But she’s not, like, based on someone in your life.

Andrew Forrester: No. I can tell that there are little glimmers of, like like, Linda Holmes is an author I really love. Okay. And I feel like she’s kind of a character that could be in a Linda Holmes book, but she’s mine too. You know what I mean?

Andrew Forrester: And and I I remember hearing another writer, Holly Black, talk about how it’s so helpful to talk to someone when you have a question about your book because you can say you can ask them a question, and they can give you a suggestion. And even if the suggestion’s wrong, you can say, oh, that’s not right because I know the right answer inside of me somewhere, somehow. And that’s crazy. But it’s so real. I’ve talked to friends and they said, what if you did this?

Andrew Forrester: I’m like, that’s not it, but you’re helping me get to whatever it is. Mhmm. And I don’t know how it would get I don’t know where that’s coming from. So, yeah, I do feel that’s like one of the more woo woo parts of me is that I’m like, I don’t know where these things come from. I think the part where I come in is that I, like, don’t let them go.

Andrew Forrester: You know? Like, I I’m I’m determined to sort of pin them down and and I did that does take work to flesh them out. But Of course. They come from somewhere.

Kate Northrup: But you keep showing up.

Andrew Forrester: I guess so. Yeah.

Kate Northrup: And doing your thousand words a day. Now if you’re not working on a project actively Mhmm. Do you just not write your thousand words? And also, you do it on weekends and vacation? I And on book tour.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. I so I think I’m kinda always working on something or at least mulling something over. Right now, I’ve been going back and forth between, like, three things. I’m not the kind of person who’s gonna plan it out beforehand. I just wanna, like, experience it and figure out if it’s the right thing or not.

Andrew Forrester: So really, it’s down to two right now. One is that story I was just telling you about, and the other is sort of it would be a departure from the genre slightly. That’s like about more about like, don’t know what it’s about. It’s also about grief. I keep coming back to that, but it’s also about like childhood friendships that turn into adult friendships.

Andrew Forrester: I don’t know. So I’m playing with both of these things. I really like both of them. But I guess I’m like, I’m not writing a thousand words a day because I’m not far enough into it to feel like it’s the thing. It doesn’t feel like a job yet.

Andrew Forrester: It just feels like the play part where I’m fleshing it out. And it’s actually it’s like crop rotation, which I obviously know nothing about, but you have to let it lay fallow for a little bit. I I think

Kate Northrup: love a farming metaphor. I live for farming

Andrew Forrester: metaphor. Actually

Kate Northrup: ran an entire

Andrew Forrester: extinct of my farming metaphor.

Kate Northrup: I ran an entire mastermind for this group of women entrepreneurs based on regenerative agriculture metaphors.

Andrew Forrester: Well, and I love regenerative agriculture is, like, one of the coolest things that is happening in the world today It is. And one of the most important. And so much of it is, like, you have to have healthy soil or you’re not we’re all gonna die. Well, yes. Right.

Kate Northrup: Metaphorically speaking and Literally.

Andrew Forrester: Tragically. We’re figuring it out. And I think, yeah, my brain, I think, works that way. So it’s like, I have to force myself to rest when it comes to writing. Okay.

Andrew Forrester: Because it’s just fun. It’s like, I’m never not imagining something. It’s been my whole life. You know, as like a five year old, I was constantly I would watch a show on TV, and I’d be playing the show as well, or my version of the show, and it would just be sort of there. And so what was I even saying?

Andrew Forrester: Oh, just once I’m in it, I will ride on vacation. I will

Kate Northrup: ride on for you to sit down and do it. You crave it?

Andrew Forrester: I crave it, and it’s so hard. Like Okay. I crave it. I think about it all day, and then I sit down. I’m when it’s finally time, I’m like, crap.

Andrew Forrester: Now I have to do it. I have

Kate Northrup: to you don’t not do it. Because I’ll tell you what’s going on. This is very personal. Like, this I’m just gonna make this about me for a minute.

Andrew Forrester: How dare you?

Kate Northrup: I have been trying to write this freaking book for three years.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah.

Kate Northrup: And I’ve written, like, maybe seven chapters or But I just keep going unbelievably long stretches without doing it. Yeah. And part of it is because I don’t have a book deal, and I’m choosing that route for this book Sure. Or it wants I mean, I’m very Please

Andrew Forrester: go for

Kate Northrup: this book has a soul, and the soul is asking me to do it this other way. So I have no deadline. Yeah. And I have nobody to be accountable to.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah.

Kate Northrup: And I’m fascinated that you, like, have your night for a thousand words, and then you just do it.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. I think it just depends. Like, I think it really depends. I like I said, I have to be far into the book. Okay.

Andrew Forrester: I have to see that it’s going to be a book before I really get regimented in that way. Right now, I’m just like playing around. And sometimes I don’t do it, but if I sit down to do it, I will do it. Does that make sense? Like, some days I’m

Kate Northrup: like Yes.

Andrew Forrester: I’m just gonna watch a show tonight. But if I’ve gotten it in my head that I’m gonna sit down and do it, then I have to figure out some sort of trick to force myself to do it. And my trick is just like a Pomodoro method where I

Kate Northrup: Okay.

Andrew Forrester: Okay. Do you know about this?

Kate Northrup: Well, the twenty minute timer?

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. So I go to pomofocus.io. Okay. It’s like an online one. You can set a twenty five minute timer.

Andrew Forrester: You can do 20, whatever. I did twenty five. I really you have to have your speakers on because when you click it, it makes a really satisfying noise

Kate Northrup: Okay. To start. Love this.

Andrew Forrester: It’s like a I’ll see if I can do it. It’s like it’s not bad.

Andrew Forrester: It’s an AirPuff?

Andrew Forrester: It’s like a like a typewriter click almost.

Kate Northrup: Oh, okay. Click.

Andrew Forrester: Yep. Whatever. Twenty five minutes go. And then once I start, I forget that I have a timer going. And then usually when the timer goes off, you can take a break, but I’m usually To your

Kate Northrup: to stand.

Andrew Forrester: To take the break. And I find that if I do that, it’s much easier to get that thousand word mark. The thousand words comes from Jamie Attenberg, wonderful writer. Yes. It’s her goal to write a thousand words a day and finish a manuscript within six months.

Kate Northrup: That is how I have written my books.

Andrew Forrester: And I don’t finish them usually in six months, like because I have a life. Like, Jamie Attenberg, who I love and admire, her life is writing. Like, she I have a job that I I can’t dedicate all that to, but it’s enough to get me going.

Kate Northrup: So great. I’m inspired by that.

Andrew Forrester: Well, thank you.

Kate Northrup: I’m gonna think about you when I’m resisting doing it, and I’m just gonna do it anyway. The the difference between you

Andrew Forrester: and me is is you have these these books on the shelf, and this is my first one, and I want so badly to be able to keep doing it Yeah. That I can be really mean to myself if I have to. No. Not mean to myself, but really strict with myself. Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: If I have to, I care not that you don’t care. I just cares I care so much about getting another book out.

Kate Northrup: I I 100% get it.

Andrew Forrester: Like I’ve gotta do it.

Kate Northrup: Right. There’s such a clear

Andrew Forrester: Yeah.

Kate Northrup: Goal. Yeah. There’s such a clear

Andrew Forrester: And the kinds of books we’re writing, the kind of book I’m writing, I think requires me to have this book deal and this editor in this situate like, know what I mean? Yes. If this is the sort of the rules of the game I’m playing, then I’m gonna play really hard, I guess.

Kate Northrup: Okay. So you grew up, very much in the church?

Andrew Forrester: Yes.

Kate Northrup: Yeah? Yes. That’s true?

Andrew Forrester: Yes. He is.

Kate Northrup: What kind

Andrew Forrester: of church? What would you Grew up Southern Baptist.

Kate Northrup: Southern Baptist. Okay. You grew up Southern Baptist.

Andrew Forrester: Big mega church, which I still feel a ton of affection for

Kate Northrup: Okay. Today. Yeah. I love hearing that. Mhmm.

Kate Northrup: Amazing. And I, through knowing you a little bit

Andrew Forrester: Mhmm.

Kate Northrup: Began to understand that changing your own relationship with faith was an important part of who you are today. Yeah. And I’m curious I guess the way I wanna frame this question is two twofold. Answer as you will. One, in what way, if at all, is your relationship with God related to your relationship with writing?

Andrew Forrester: Mhmm. Part a. Mhmm. Part b, seemingly unrelated.

Andrew Forrester: Let’s see if we can connect them.

Kate Northrup: What are you teaching your kids about God?

Andrew Forrester: Okay. I can I can connect these?

Kate Northrup: K.

Andrew Forrester: Great. So my relationship with God was, like, the central thing forever for me growing up in some really great ways. And then to no one’s fault, some really scary ways. I grew up very, I don’t know, afraid of doing the wrong thing and afraid I was afraid of hell. I was afraid of sending my friends down the wrong path, which I think is very sweet, but also a lot of pressure for an eight year old or whatever to feel the burden of some like the state of someone’s soul.

Andrew Forrester: I wouldn’t have said it that way, but I did feel that. And so there was that, and then there was also this sense of, like, intellectual curiosity that I felt on the one hand, I felt very much encouraged in by my parents, by my teachers, especially by my teachers who who sort of saw something in me in in certain classes. We have talked about my teachers. And so that felt like it was fit they were feigning that flame. And at the same time, I, a lot of times, felt like and, again, I don’t think anyone would say this, and I don’t think anyone would necessarily be to blame for this, but I felt like within my church experience, asking questions and having curiosity and having a difference of opinion was was not not within bounds of what was allowed.

Andrew Forrester: And so that was, like, a lot of my life I think I spent with this sort of cognitive dissonance. Really loving God and loving so much, loving the church, loving the people that I was surrounding myself with, but also having questions that I was not allowing myself to fully ask Mhmm. And certainly not answer. I grew up and I went and met people in the real world who are different than me. And I went to grad school, which actually, like, I think people would think that grad school would be the thing that would tip you from, like, conservative Christian into progressive Christian.

Andrew Forrester: And it really wasn’t. But it was just one in a long list of experiences where I met just really lovely people. And then I started to read and listen to people who identified as Christians like I did, but had different viewpoints. And rather than being people who I thought were being lazy, taking the easy way out, they just wanted to do bad stuff and not feel bad about it, these were people who took it all so seriously. They felt burdened in the same ways I did, and they found answers that actually, like, felt like they balanced they were balanced with their own, I don’t know, viewpoint, sensibility, like, answers that made sense.

Andrew Forrester: They weren’t contradictory to whatever biblical or whatever views they had. I don’t know. So that to me was like, oh, I can have questions. I can have doubts. Those doubts actually don’t have to lead me back to where I started.

Andrew Forrester: They can lead me in a new direction. And so if I’m trying to connect that to my writing, I think it’s just the sense of, like, all of my characters are going to have big questions, and I’m going to be okay with them not necessarily finding the answers to those questions. And the things that I’ve been writing lately are very clearly influenced by, like, like, I can’t I’ve I’ve written several evangelical characters who have questions. Like Uh-huh. And I’m not sure which one will be the next one I write about, but I just can’t it’s my worldview.

Andrew Forrester: It’s the worldview that has shaped me, and it’s balanced by these two, like, one really specific view of the world, this sort of evangelical Christian view, and then this more slightly progressive, not pretty progressive view that I have today, but they’re both in there.

Kate Northrup: Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: And so, yeah, so that sort of shaped us. As far as my kids, I don’t know. It’s it’s so hard to I do want my kids to grow up feeling, like, reverence for all faiths, but also, like, yeah, we are Christian. That’s where we’re coming from. But I want them to believe in a God that is I mean, I don’t think this will offend some people that I know, but I don’t wanna believe in a God that’s not loving.

Andrew Forrester: Like Yeah. That that if I’m gonna believe in a God, it’s just gonna be in a God that’s loving. And I can’t really see the point of any of the other stuff if that’s not the the priority. And so, yeah, when we talk about God, the main thing I hope they take away from me is God loves you. Now if they have broader theological questions or they feel pulled in a different direction, then I hope they have feel the freedom to talk to me about that thing.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. That makes sense?

Kate Northrup: Yes. This may sound like a very simple and by simple, I mean, like, rudimentary question that is, like, semi dumb.

Andrew Forrester: No such thing.

Kate Northrup: Well, but I really am curious in your worldview. I I I guess I should say it’s oversimplified. Okay. But I really am curious. Yeah.

Kate Northrup: Having grown up in a deeply spiritual household, but not at all religious.

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like like You can see you.

Kate Northrup: Woo to the million Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: Degree. Yeah.

Kate Northrup: Do you think in your worldview that God wanted you to be a published author and get this work published?

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. Honestly, twenty years ago, I would say, yes. This is the path that God has for me. And now, if I think about what God wants for me, I think it’s just like joy, peace, to do good in the world, to see, like, the beauty of God in the world, like those sorts of things. Do I think God wanted me to be a published writer?

Andrew Forrester: I don’t know. And that’s the other thing that’s really nice. Like, I don’t know. Yep. And I’m okay with that.

Andrew Forrester: I don’t think it’s gonna people I know will go take themselves to tasks trying to figure out whether God knows everything that’s ever going to happen or whether predestination is all these things. And I’m just like, oh my gosh. I don’t care. Like

Kate Northrup: Wait. Will that impact your daily life?

Andrew Forrester: I don’t care in that I don’t think it matters. Like, I think what matters is that we love each other, and that we believe that God loves us, and that that love is expressed through the way that we treat each other, and the way we treat the lowly and the meek, and the way that we extend the grace of God to people. Like, what like, that’s what that’s what I care about. And I think God is not a very big God if God isn’t okay with us not being sure about everything. Does that make sense?

Mhmm.

Kate Northrup: We have my last question.

Andrew Forrester: No. 20 more.

Kate Northrup: I know. Well, you get so many more tonight. Come

Andrew Forrester: to Novellette.

Kate Northrup: We get to do this all over again except new questions. So my last question is, what was, if anything, required of you and in you do you think? And do you think there’s anything that shifted in you? You know, you talked about timing. You talked about Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: All these things. Do you think that there was anything that shifted in you that allowed for this book to get picked up?

Andrew Forrester: Yeah. I think that I gave myself permission, like I said earlier, to do something new. I had sort of convinced myself that I was a young adult or children’s writer because every idea I had was about teenagers. Like, I maybe it’s because I was teaching at the time, but like Yeah. Totally.

Andrew Forrester: You know, the

Kate Northrup: stakes Stimming in it.

Andrew Forrester: The stakes were always like, what if this boy doesn’t like me? Or what if I get in trouble at school? Or my parents just don’t understand? And I think those stories are so beautiful and valuable, and I’m so I hope that I get to go back to them. But when I had this idea, I had to tell myself, like, I was there is this idea in the literature literary world that, you know, the best people don’t hold.

Andrew Forrester: But some people think that literature for kids is easier or less than. You know, it doesn’t take what it takes to write an adult book. And there’s some internalized part of me that clearly believe that because I had to tell myself, actually, I I am good enough to write a book for adults and for people who are adults to read it. And for that to feel it’s kind of like I don’t know. It’s like if I had to give a presentation about, like, airplanes to engineers, you know, and believe that they would care about what I was saying Yeah.

Andrew Forrester: It felt a little bit like that. Like, I’m gonna write about adult characters doing adult things and hope that adults care. Whereas sometimes it feels like it’s easier to entertain children. I don’t actually believe that, but it felt like it was more within my skill set to entertain children. Interesting.

Andrew Forrester: So when I decided to do this thing, I had to, like, believe that I could do it and let myself do it. And in doing so, I like I had so much fun. It’s so me.

Kate Northrup: It’s so you.

Andrew Forrester: It’s so me. And, like, why wouldn’t I wanna hang out with me?

Kate Northrup: A 100%.

Andrew Forrester: Does that make sense?

Kate Northrup: So It makes perfect sense.

Andrew Forrester: And I think my editor saw that. She saw this, like, authentically me thing. And, you know, even just the packaging, the way that they push it out into the world, it feels true to me, and it feels different than some of the other books in my imprint and in my publisher. It just feels like they knew and understood me, and they that came through in the book, and that’s why we have the book that we have.

Kate Northrup: The book is absolutely wonderful. For everyone listening, you must get yourself a copy of How the Story Goes. I was lucky enough to receive an advanced reader hobby of this book, and I loved every minute of it, except at the end, I started slowing down because it was about to end, and I was feeling really sad about the fact that then I wouldn’t get to read it anymore. That’s very so, overall, I would say 95% joyful, 5% sad it was over.

Andrew Forrester: One second. Wait until the next one. That’s exactly the feeling I want. A little bit more info.

Kate Northrup: A little bit more info, but mostly amazing. So how the story goes, obviously, you get it at an indie bookseller. Yep. Get it at the library, but really it’s anywhere.

Andrew Forrester: Yep. Get the Kindle, get the audiobook, whatever you’d like. So

Kate Northrup: Great. Yeah. Amazing.

Andrew Forrester: Thanks, Andrew. And thank you.

Kate Northrup: Amazing. There’s an amazing free event coming up that I want you to know about, and it relates to your body, your nervous system, and your money. It’s called Opting Out of Urgency, and it is led by my dear friend, Sarah Tacey, who’s also our resident nervous system healing expert within Relaxed Money. So Sarah has worked with hundreds of high performing athletes and executives around the world, and she is teaching Opting Out of Urgency. And it is going to cover the biology of urgency and why your system gets stuck there, simple body based tools for returning to resonance and choice, the difference between pressure that drains you and pressure you choose because pressure is not always bad, moving from all or nothing thinking to nuanced options that you couldn’t see before, and how slowing down supports boundary repair and relationships.

Kate Northrup: So in this season, if everything feels urgent, if your life feels like too much, or if you simply wanna find biologically based strategies to find the spaciousness and the abundance that is always available, you just can’t see it when everything feels urgent, then head over to katenorthrup.com/urgency, and you can get in on this free workshop. Again, that’s katenorthrup.com/urgency, and the link is also in the show notes.